Ok lets talk about the Monk character class. I personally can't see myself allowing them in a campaign I am running unless there is some sort of oriental connection, or some sort of all monk campaign where all the characters and NPCs are monks, perhaps like a Kung-Fu movie with a Karate Kid climax. That being said I'll usually allow almost anything the players can justify with an exceptional background story and/or character motivation.
I really think the problem here is that the monk is not developed enough. We know he/she belongs to some temple (probably) but there has never been any kind of development on what temples are like for the monk. Do they worship a deity or some kind of alignment abstraction (or divine concept as explained in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook under clerics - such as battle, death, justice, knowledge). Are monks' temples the same as clerics' temples? Do they worship the same gods or divine concepts? In the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide one thing I found promising about this class is the inclusion of different class features manifesting themselves as monk philosophies such as Drunken Master, Hungry Ghost Hand, Ki Mystic etc. This is a great start as it can provide motivation and story background. I can just see a monk NPC showing up just as the party is about to achieve success and throw a wrench in things because he is from a temple of an opposed philosophy.
In general I tend to agree with the AD&D oriental adventures book that the monk does not belong with the western style character classes and is better suited to an oriental campaign. If one is to include the monk in the west in any AD&D FRPG offspring game or have an oriental campaign for that matter then there should also be a set of oriental classes.
Pathfinder could use class archetypes that modify the traditional classes such as fighter/ranger - bushi, rogue-yakuza, cleric-sohei/shukenja, palladin-samurai, cavalier-kensai, wizard/sorcerer-wu-jen and prestige classes such as assassin-ninja.
Castles & Crusades should be even easier with fighter/ranger-bushi, rogue-yakusa, assassin-ninja, monk and barbarian stay the same, wizard/illusionist- wu-jen, cleric/druid-sohei/shukenja, knight/paladin-samurai. Just invent some oriental class abilities that better reflect the oriental flavour of the character. I personally think this is what was intended in the first place and why the monk was included as it was not like wu-jen being just a magic-user by another name, but something with no western unarmed martial-master counterpart.
I think if the monk is to really shine as a character class much of the above needs to be resolved, either by game publishers, or even better, by imaginative referees.
Hi Scott, nice post, and belated welcome to the old school blogging community!
ReplyDeleteThe notion that monks are inappropriate to all but oriental themed campaigns is a common one, and one that I disagree with heartily. I've discussed my objections at length in a previous post EVERYBODY Was Kung Fu Fighting, but to sum up: martial arts as a systemic system of unarmed fighting arose independently all over the world, so the notion that they would be common only in the orient is incorrect. The concept of a monastic ascetic class that uses martial arts might be inappropriate in a historically accurate campaign situated in medieval Europe, but in a fantasy campaign they fit in just fine. For example, Robert Howard's Hyborian Age had monk-like characters from Khitai, and Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Convenant series also had a group of monk-like warriors. Basically, I've been in love with the monk since 1980 and I'll go to any lengths to rationalize their inclusion ;)
Cheers,
Sean
I guess technically quarterstaff, fencing, wrestling and boxing could fit into that class but its the tone here that I think doesn't quite fit. The monk archetype for me is clearly oriental, although I fully agree there is a place for a martial master in a western medieval fantasy game. Its just for me I have no experience with that type of character is the fiction I've read, although I'm not one to put out the flames of ones imagination. Have you played the monk class often? If so what was that like as a player and how would you describe your character(s)?
ReplyDeleteSadly, I've not had much chance to play at all the last 25 years or so, since I'm almost always behind the DM screen. The only time I've played a monk was in a campaign set in a fantasy version of Earth, sort of like the world of Moorcock's Hawkmoon series or the Warhammer world. My character was Egyptian, devoted to Horus, and I played him as an agent of the God of Vengeance, avenging those who were wronged. It was quite a lot of fun to play and full of character.
ReplyDeleteThe link to my post on monks doesn't seem to have worked, so here's the URL in case you're interested in my perspective in detail:
http://flamingtales.blogspot.com/2010/07/everybody-was-kung-fu-fighting.html
Cheers,
Sean
That sounds like the Moon Knight of Tragic Europe - yes!
ReplyDeleteI'd really just love to see some sort of campaign treatment in regard to monks, the class seems really abstract to the point that its hard to focus on the archetype - at least for me. I find the cleric is many things too as an archetype and it also suffers because I don't think that archetype comes out in actual play - the mechanics of the cleric make it something else through play, though it doesn't have to be - more Sister Rebecca and less Aleena.
I agree. Both the monk and cleric suffer from being poorly defined archetypes. I dislike the cleric-as-templar approach that is taken in D&D; as you point out they try to be too many things. Instead, I prefer the traditional sword & sorcery view of priests as sorcerers mechanically indistinct from magic users. In my game I've done away with the cleric class and rolled all the spells into one list available to magic users, then redefined the priest as a magic user "prestige class," with some additional holy abilities.
ReplyDeleteIn this context I define monks as temple defenders who often accompany priests on adventures to guard and protect them. I like this a lot but it doesn't make sense in a normal D&D campaign where the clerics are spell casting knights.